Thursday September 9, 2010 4:44 PM AEST

AMD and NVIDIA butt heads over physics

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AMD and NVIDIA butt heads over physics

Exclusive: An Atomic talk with engineers from the world’s biggest graphics companies, as we find out whose API is top dog.

The Game Developers Conference is typically an event packed with technological and software innovation; showcasing the up-and-coming new tech as well as existing technologies, albeit in a heavily tweaked form. However, GDC 2010 brought about some controversy between the world's largest graphics manufacturers, as AMD's Worldwide Developer Relations Manager Richard Huddy spoke out against rival company NVIDIA.

In an interview with UK site THINQ, Richard commented on NVIDIA's work with games developers: "What I've seen with physics, or PhysX rather, is that Nvidia create a marketing deal with a title, and then as part of that marketing deal, they have the right to go in and implement PhysX in the game". This comment certainly implies that the physics game is afoot, so with the competition heating up over the recent wave of new graphics technologies such as AMD's Bullet, and NVIDIA's PhysX, we tumbled down the rabbit hole of physics simulation to find out what the real story was.

When we asked for a counter-comment from NVIDIA about Richard's GDC interview we got ahold of both Ashu Rege, Senior Director of Content and Technology, and Nadeem Mohammad, Director of Product Management and PhysX. Supporting AMD was in fact Richard Huddy himself, so with each manufacturer represented by high-level staff members, we sat down and posed a question to Ashu and Nadeem; has NVIDIA been paying content developers to include PhysX?

Ashu responds "No, no paying. We haven't given bags of cash to [developers]. NVIDIA's been engaging with [developers] for ages, even before physics. The core of our business is working to make great applications; working with developers is truly critical to us". In fact, Ashu suggests that the use of the PhysX library isn't all that NVIDIA give to developers. "In our product program we put in a lot of investment. We'll work with them to fix their shaders, we'll test [their game] on every piece of hardware we have, and we'll promote it. It brings great value to our users".

However, Richard believes otherwise. Instead of working to help the developers of games to benefit all users, he said that PhysX is a hindrance: "it can be used on the CPU, and you can also use it on the GPU using a stream computer or GPGPU that NVIDIA run in CUDA. If you look at the CPU implementation of PhysX it's typically ok-ish; the comparison of CPU vs GPU is fundamentally interesting to NVIDIA. They are, after all, a GPU company."

Most game titles on the PC platform that support PhysX are still capable of running the library on the processor if no NVIDIA card is available, but in a limited state that runs with a reduced level of realism. Richard highlights Sacred 2 as a classic example, "it runs GPU accelerated PhysX - but if you don't have [an NVIDIA card] it only runs on a single CPU core. When it falls back to the CPU, NVIDIA has absolutely no interest that it runs efficiently. I see no GPU accelerated PhysX game that runs on more than one CPU core".

Ashu responds to the efficiency plainly: "Physics is a whole software package, and has different performance characteristics on different hardware." Nadeem from NVIDIA reckons the benefits of PhysX are clear. "PhysX makes a huge visual difference, and the most excited people every time we talk to a developer are the artists - their vision of what they want to do is always curtailed by the lack of technology". But if Richard thinks that PhysX doesn't offer enough to users, what about AMD's competing solution, Bullet?

 
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12 Comments
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nukejockey
Mar 29, 2010 2:54 PM
Its a shame nvidia are being greedy with physx, it could definitely be run on an AMD gpu, or see better performance when run on the cpu, unfortunately, they dont seem to give a fuck and are only happy when they're making money.

This became quite clear when they started cockblocking people using ATI cards for graphics and Nvidia gpus solely for physics.
SceptreCore
Mar 29, 2010 2:59 PM
Seems awfully like a grey kick back to me nVidia. Plus it's not like DX10.1 and 11 are AMD's proprietary software. They were supporting Microsoft who you left hanging high and dry, just because you didn't feel like it. As a hardware and software dev, AMD must support Microsoft who in turns supports them... it makes good business sense. And if you cared about PC Gaming like you claim, why not make PhysX free for all, open-license, and work with other graphics industries to make it the best it can be? You can't... because your full of shit!
Roguegaming
Mar 29, 2010 3:34 PM
Nvidia need all the help they can get at the moment, what with the loss of revenue for the past 6 months. Which is not looking much better with the new launch of the power hungry 400 series.

Speaking of which any articles you wish to share regarding the new launch??
CAPS LOCK
Mar 29, 2010 5:03 PM
what do the square brackets mean?

eg "Ashu responds "No, no paying. We haven't given bags of cash to [developers]. NVIDIA's been engaging with [developers]."

does it just mean they didnt say that word and you just put it in there as the most likely thing?
Hawkeye
Mar 29, 2010 6:47 PM
That's pretty much correct, CAPS. In interviews in text-based media, you'll often get that. Because it's just two guys talking, often they'll be pretty relaxed; and they'll also be able to rely on the context of questions or the conversation.

Turning that into an interview-based feature (as opposed to a straight interview), you need to clarify some things. In the above case, the interviewee likely referred to 'them'. Accurate in context, but needing clarification in the article.
SceptreCore
Mar 29, 2010 8:03 PM
More like. "We haven't been giving cash to.... We have been developing with." Developers is implied.
Hawkeye
Mar 30, 2010 8:04 AM
I can't work out if you're agreeing with me or disagreeing, sceptre.
CAPS LOCK
Mar 30, 2010 6:08 PM
Cheers for clearing that up Hawkeye, I've always wondered what the meant :D
antifunker
Mar 30, 2010 6:38 PM
It's a good thing that nVidia is working closely with developers (and has done for some time), and it's something that AMD should also be doing instead of just taking on an open source engine and hoping everybody else jumps on board.

It is an agressive market place. nVidia is competing aggressively. They have put themselves in a position where they have the ability to do that. You can't really crucify them for that.
Athlonite
May 10, 2010 11:09 PM
@ nukejockey nVidia did offer the use of PhysX to ATI but ATI turned it down saying they would be pursuing Havok for their Physics engine...

and this statement ""PhysX makes a huge visual difference"" is the most bullshit I've ever read in a single sentence i couldn't give a hoot about some flappy cloth or that a box explodes a certain way when shot
King_Of_The_Mountain
May 15, 2010 11:37 PM
I do though and I'm sure others feel the same, I think it's absolutely awesome when proper physics is applied, sure it doesn't make the game but it is definitely good.
Athlonite
May 18, 2010 5:11 PM
well good for you mean time if i want pussx in a game i'll just use the patch over at ngohq to make it run or buy games that use Havok or what ever ATI/AMD are calling it now
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