Wednesday May 23, 2012 3:31 PM AEST

AMD and NVIDIA butt heads over physics

By Justin Robinson
14:30 Mar 29, 2010 | 12 Comments
Tags: AMD | ATI | NVIDIA | physics | PhysX | Bullet | Havok | engineers | interview
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AMD and NVIDIA butt heads over physics

AMD's opinion on Bullet

Richard believes that AMD have made the right choice in supporting Bullet physics as their solution. He says "it's clearly going to benefit from being open sourced, and it benefits from the fact that it's being added to by a platform company - we don't care whether the GPU or the CPU wins. What we do is deliver value." He also believes that the open-sourced nature of Bullet prevents it from focusing on benefits for one manufacturer's technology. "We couldn't get away with putting shoddy code in there and calling it ‘really good'". When asked about how AMD see Havok, Richard stated "Havok isn't in the guilty situation that PhysX is".

However, he also pointed out that "almost all games [that use PhysX] run on the CPU, and only those [that are accelerated by GPU] will work with NVIDIA technology". Clearly a sore point, Richard explains that the free nature of Bullet is bound to prove its success. "It's not our plan to pay people to put physics on the GPU, we want them to have a free choice. Because it's open source I imagine that [we'll] take our gaming program and wrap it around games. It'll move towards the open standards; PhysX is unlikely to be embraced by the whole industry."

NVIDIA's opinion on PhysX

Ashu and Nadeem have made it clear that there's no money being exchanged in return for PhysX implementation in games, but they defend their proprietary solution fiercely. "If we weren't hands-on [developing PhysX] we wouldn't be able to innovate at the rate we do - our competitors are jealous of that because they're not working with games developers. If you look at the features and technologies they're introducing, they're a few generations behind."

The huge support for PhysX is clear, but it's also rivalled by Havok. Ashu explains that "Havok is a proprietary physics package sold for a decent chunk of change. They do not give it away for free; they only give away the binaries. There is no standard for rigid body behaviour, and there is no game engine standard." When asked about the danger of Bullet encroaching on PhysX's market share, he remarked "when is this awesome solution [Bullet physics] expected to actually be seen?"

Bullet will penetrate the games market soon

Richard refused to let that comment sit in the open without an answer, and explained the future of Bullet. "I can't preannounce any titles that use [Bullet], I know at least three developers - one of which is committed to launching this year. It's the third most common physics engine which is used in games." AMD's support of Bullet is certainly impressive, and on top of development support, AMD have also arranged for Pixelux's Digital Molecular Matter engine to be incorporated into the PC version of Bullet.

"It's a very complicated piece of maths that allows the game to smash things up without scripted rules - proper glass and metal simulations. It's a rather beautiful implementation, license free on PC, and runs only on DirectCompute". Again placing emphasis on developer choice, Richard highlights that "one way or another we've arranged that it is license free - there is no coercion". We gave Richard the chance to fire back a question at NVIDIA, and he asked "Is there a single GPU accelerated game that uses PhysX that is not a part of NVIDIA's marketing program, that implies effective payment from NVIDIA?"

Ashu responded with "Instead of wasting time doing PR stuff, they should do stuff that actually helps games come out. When AMD had DX10.1, did they not pay developers to put out DX10.1 content? Have they not been doing similar programs with developers for DX11?" While we can't confirm that AMD had been supporting DX11 developers, Nadeem mentioned something that was quite unexpected: "If we found a title that used GPU physics that we did not know about, we'd be fired!"

Whether or not this is hyperbole seems unclear, but Ashu finally answered Richard's question directly: "PhysX isn't an application; the physics subsystem can support a multithreaded [CPU] environment. It's up to the game developer to decide how many threads are used." However, when prompted further, Ashu admitted that "the majority find they have a single thread dedicated to physics".

 
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12 Comments
nukejockey
Mar 29, 2010 2:54 PM
Its a shame nvidia are being greedy with physx, it could definitely be run on an AMD gpu, or see better performance when run on the cpu, unfortunately, they dont seem to give a fuck and are only happy when they're making money.

This became quite clear when they started cockblocking people using ATI cards for graphics and Nvidia gpus solely for physics.
SceptreCore
Mar 29, 2010 2:59 PM
Seems awfully like a grey kick back to me nVidia. Plus it's not like DX10.1 and 11 are AMD's proprietary software. They were supporting Microsoft who you left hanging high and dry, just because you didn't feel like it. As a hardware and software dev, AMD must support Microsoft who in turns supports them... it makes good business sense. And if you cared about PC Gaming like you claim, why not make PhysX free for all, open-license, and work with other graphics industries to make it the best it can be? You can't... because your full of shit!
Roguegaming
Mar 29, 2010 3:34 PM
Nvidia need all the help they can get at the moment, what with the loss of revenue for the past 6 months. Which is not looking much better with the new launch of the power hungry 400 series.

Speaking of which any articles you wish to share regarding the new launch??
CAPS LOCK
Mar 29, 2010 5:03 PM
what do the square brackets mean?

eg "Ashu responds "No, no paying. We haven't given bags of cash to [developers]. NVIDIA's been engaging with [developers]."

does it just mean they didnt say that word and you just put it in there as the most likely thing?
Hawkeye
Mar 29, 2010 6:47 PM
That's pretty much correct, CAPS. In interviews in text-based media, you'll often get that. Because it's just two guys talking, often they'll be pretty relaxed; and they'll also be able to rely on the context of questions or the conversation.

Turning that into an interview-based feature (as opposed to a straight interview), you need to clarify some things. In the above case, the interviewee likely referred to 'them'. Accurate in context, but needing clarification in the article.
SceptreCore
Mar 29, 2010 8:03 PM
More like. "We haven't been giving cash to.... We have been developing with." Developers is implied.
Hawkeye
Mar 30, 2010 8:04 AM
I can't work out if you're agreeing with me or disagreeing, sceptre.
CAPS LOCK
Mar 30, 2010 6:08 PM
Cheers for clearing that up Hawkeye, I've always wondered what the meant :D
antifunker
Mar 30, 2010 6:38 PM
It's a good thing that nVidia is working closely with developers (and has done for some time), and it's something that AMD should also be doing instead of just taking on an open source engine and hoping everybody else jumps on board.

It is an agressive market place. nVidia is competing aggressively. They have put themselves in a position where they have the ability to do that. You can't really crucify them for that.
Athlonite
May 10, 2010 11:09 PM
@ nukejockey nVidia did offer the use of PhysX to ATI but ATI turned it down saying they would be pursuing Havok for their Physics engine...

and this statement ""PhysX makes a huge visual difference"" is the most bullshit I've ever read in a single sentence i couldn't give a hoot about some flappy cloth or that a box explodes a certain way when shot
King_Of_The_Mountain
May 15, 2010 11:37 PM
I do though and I'm sure others feel the same, I think it's absolutely awesome when proper physics is applied, sure it doesn't make the game but it is definitely good.
Athlonite
May 18, 2010 5:11 PM
well good for you mean time if i want pussx in a game i'll just use the patch over at ngohq to make it run or buy games that use Havok or what ever ATI/AMD are calling it now
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